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#21 Jason

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 01:44 AM

I didn't say what influences life isn't natural. Of course the thing that is out there that we aren't aware of is natural.

 

It sounds to me like you believe in a non-revealed god-type character that doesn't mess with us humans, nor does it revolve around us.

 

We are made of cells. The thing I am talking about must be responsible for how cells are put together to form more complex life. Therefore, this thing (I won't call it a "character") influences all life in that it forms the life out of cells.

 

We have to be careful here. We can't say that this is a human-like spirit that says "I want life to be like this, so I'll make it like this." We have full proof of evolution happening. But there has to be some force (or something else) that is guiding cells and making them operate how they operate. After all, the random chance idea seems impossible (and I explained that above).

 

But even if this "thing" that you think exists weren't a true god or deity of any kind, it still seems to me that you would be even lower on the scale - a 5, even. Simply because you have a belief of something that is supernatural (give or take).

 

I do not believe in anything supernatural. Supernatural cannot exist.

 

Also, I'm curious as to the kind of influence they hold. Did they/it simply start life and leave it at that? Are they with us now?

 

I can't answer this question as I know nothing about it and I have no idea what it is. All I know is there there has to be something in the picture. And it's likely nothing like what we imagine (because it's not possible to imagine something outside of our scope).

 

Or is it something different than that. Perhaps you simply mean a "force" undiscovered by us. A scientific force, not a supernatural one. Something that could shake up the world of physics. In this case - yes, absolutely possible. Science could any day discover something radically new that would change our world as we have known it. A "new gravity," if you will.

 

This is more likely.



#22 Hunter

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 01:49 AM

Okay, gotcha. I was just trying to piece it together. If my last paragraph sums it up for you then awesome; that seems best in my opinion also. 



#23 joash_3

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 05:52 AM

DELETED FOR NO REASON HAHAHA



#24 Jason

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 06:26 AM

too bad guys I put myself on 1 I believe that god lives and I will never lead toward 7 that's dumb to lean to 7

 

And your reasoning? We've presented quite a bit of reasoning not to be a 1 on that scale. But I haven't seen yours...

 

(If god lives, then can't he die?)



#25 ARCHIEFARCHY

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:46 AM

I'm on 5 even though I'm Christian 

not seven because before the universe begun there must have been something to start it.


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#26 joash_3

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:51 AM

Just because I sad live doesn't mean he has a normal human life that's just weird to say that I cant stop laughing. READ THE BIBLE MY FRIENDS OR ELSE I'm so sorry what will happen when you meet death. give reasons all you want I'm not listening cos I'm going to be strong in Christ and never change but the only request is become a christian



#27 Hunter

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:53 AM

too bad guys I put myself on 1 I believe that god lives and I will never lead toward 7 that's dumb to lean to 7

 

Don't say "too bad." Simply explain to us why you feel this way, and, in your case, where the absolute evidence is for god's existence. In placing yourself at a 1, you must have some. Also explain why our position is dumb. It's not very polite to make outlandish statements about us and then have nothing to back them up with.

 

I'm on 5 even though I'm Christian 

not seven because before the universe begun there must have been something to start it.

 

I see. Well, we could go all day conversing about the science involved in starting a universe. However a major part of science is also realizing that some questions may never be answered; we as a society must simply accept this and do our absolute best to answer them - no matter what. 

 

We do indeed have a quite good idea of how our universe began, however: the big bang. Essentially saying that our "type" of universe is a "flat" one. And that we can provide evidence (particularly of the big bang) based on this fact and others. Example: because of our flat universe, it's somewhat easy for us to look out into the cosmos and see that we are ever-expanding. This expanding is due to a primal force billions of years ago (the big bang), among many other things. But anyhow, as I said, I will gladly go deeper into this to the best of my knowledge; I find it supremely interesting. 


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#28 Hunter

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:58 AM

Just because I sad live doesn't mean he has a normal human life that's just weird to say that I cant stop laughing. READ THE BIBLE MY FRIENDS OR ELSE I'm so sorry what will happen when you meet death. give reasons all you want I'm not listening cos I'm going to be strong in Christ and never change but the only request is become a christian

 

Okay, then... You've gone quite off the deep end here. I feel that if I went into the actual reasoning behind your claims you would take them in vain and simply move on. If you feel I should, and want to broaden your understanding, please say so - we would be happy to help. 

 

But I can't resist this bit here... No, the Bible is not factual. Whatsoever. Reading it further will broaden only my knowledge of the religion that is Christianity. Not of the world in which we live (as though it is a basis to know exactly what happens once we die). 

 

Also - if "being strong in Christ" means not using logic and reason, and if it means that you are choosing to never change and not listen, then I want no part of this Christ of yours. 

 

OH - one more thing - apparently you don't read too much of that Bible of yours, because in 1 Peter 3:15 it reads: "But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." Interesting; sounds to me like the Bible says you should gracefully answer our questioning and help us to understand what you supposedly do, not run off as though you are being more strong in Christ by doing so.

 

(Note: sorry for the extra post, he posted as I was writing the above.)


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#29 ARCHIEFARCHY

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:12 AM

 

 

I see. Well, we could go all day conversing about the science involved in starting a universe. However a major part of science is also realizing that some questions may never be answered; we as a society must simply accept this and do our absolute best to answer them - no matter what. 

 

We as humans do indeed have a quite good idea of how our universe began, however: the big bang. Essentially saying that our "type" of universe is a "flat" one. And that we can provide evidence (particularly of the big bang) based on this fact and others. Example: because of our flat universe, it's somewhat easy for us to look out into the cosmos and see that we are ever-expanding. This expanding is due to a primal force billions of years ago (the big bang), among many other things. But anyhow, as I said, I will gladly go deeper into this to the best of my knowledge; I find it supremely interesting. 

I believe the big bang and (no offence to Christians that believe in this)I think that the story about god creating the world in seven days is not true and is just used to teach children that we cant have good without bad and has no truth in it.  I believe that something must have started the big bang and it could be god or it could have just happened for a reason we will never know.


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#30 Jason

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:17 AM

Very good points made above. A few other comments...

 

I'm on 5 even though I'm Christian 

not seven because before the universe begun there must have been something to start it.

 

But then there must have been something to start that thing that started it, right? And there must have been something to start THAT thing. You can never really use the argument that there "had to be something to start it" because it will result in an infinite loop. At some point you must just accept that SOMETHING had to start there without being started by something else. And if it can be a god, then it can just as easily be something other than a god.

 

Just because I sad live doesn't mean he has a normal human life that's just weird to say that I cant stop laughing. READ THE BIBLE MY FRIENDS OR ELSE I'm so sorry what will happen when you meet death. give reasons all you want I'm not listening cos I'm going to be strong in Christ and never change but the only request is become a christian

 

Well, "life" only means one thing. There isn't actually a "state" of being alive vs. being dead, per say. Being alive simply means the organism as a whole is functioning. That is, oxygen is being delivered to all the cells. Blood is being delivered. The heart is pumping. The brain is firing. If the heart isn't pumping, for example, then the organism "dies" because it can no longer function. But the cells themselves won't die from that until some period of time has passed and they run out of nutrients. That is to say, though, that life only means functioning, not a certain "on" or "off" state. So if god is "living", then he has a functioning body. And then can't the body stop functioning? Or are you saying he has a body that cannot be harmed or stop functioning? But how would that be?

 

I have read [some of] the bible. And I found a lot of silly things inside of it that could easily be argued with (right on the very first page of it).

 

Of course, we'll have some people who deny all evidence against god and will choose to live in a fantasy world within their heads. But just remember... even if you don't listen, that won't change reality. If god actually isn't real, your strong and dedicated belief won't make "him" real.


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#31 Hunter

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:18 AM

I believe the big bang and (no offence to Christians that believe in this)I think that the story about god creating the world in seven days is not true and is just used to teach children that we cant have good without bad and has no truth in it.  I believe that something must have started the big bang and it could be god or it could have just happened for a reason we will never know.

 

Totally understand. Which is why you're at a 5. Essentially an agnostic Christian.

 

But allow me to note that - personally - I do not hold bars in order to not offend Christians who live in a fantasy land. If they become offended because they think that god plucked them into existence 6,000 years ago in 6 days - so be it. But do not ever try to doctrine this to your children, or the children in our public schools. This sort of behavior (that I have witnessed far too often) is what makes me angry and it what pushes me to not care if they become offended or unhappy at science and its offerings and the right of our children to not be dragged into a fiasco of religion and its non-truths. 


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#32 Jason

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:21 AM

I saw a government petition that was petitioning the government to stop teaching evolution in schools because it's "wrong". That kind of thing angers me a lot. It's one thing, as you said above, to believe in something yourself. Believe whatever you want to believe in. But it's another thing to try to make it so that other people have to share your belief without having a choice, to block out the scientific data and force them to be uninformed.

 

How bothersome.


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#33 Hunter

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:28 AM

Precisely. It's disgusting and idiotic. It's not a matter of compromising with creationist's agenda and allowing them "some" classroom time - no. It's a matter of continuing to teach evolution's facts completely and leaving these political and religious agendas out of our public school systems.

 

Not to mention the people who write/support these petitions clearly have no concept of what they're proposing. I mean, honestly, say they succeeded. Say we began to teach creationism as total fact to impressionable children. Do they not understand that in order to do this there must be a curriculum? There must be facts? It would be blatantly forcing Christianity into a public, government-owned sphere and they're perfectly okay with that... so long as it's their religion

 

So useless. So... dumb


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#34 joash_3

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:42 AM

Oh well im sorry what will happen to you then live well if you can



#35 Jason

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 09:12 PM

What will happen to me? I'll go to hell? Well, I'll tell you one thing... I won't be having too awful of a time in hell because I can't experience it.

 

You know, I won't be able to see hell because the rod & cone cells / occipital lobe in the back of my brain take care of sight. And those will be down here on Earth.

 

I won't be able to smell hell because the olfactory receptors / olfactory bulb in the brain take care of smell. And those will be down here on Earth.

 

I won't be able to hear hell because the hair cells in the inner ear and the temporal lobes in my brain take care of hearing. And those will be down here on Earth.

 

I won't be able to feel the pain from the fire in hell. Because in order to feel pain, the cells throughout my body must send a message through my spinal cord into my brain, which, my spinal cord and my brain will be down here on Earth.

 

So yeah, I guess I'll go to hell, but I sure won't be AWARE of it. Guess it won't be too bad, right?


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#36 Hunter

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 09:58 PM

Oh well im sorry what will happen to you then live well if you can

 

In my opinion, when I die I will simply lose consciousness. I will "return," if you will, to the state "I" was in before I was born. This is just my opinion, of course, and science will have a very hard time proving what actually happens.

 

And yes - I will live well. That's the idea. Think about it. You're living your life for a god who probably isn't real, fearing for a place that probably doesn't exist, in hopes of getting to a paradise that probably doesn't exist. I haven't felt more free ever in my life since leaving religion behind. I feel so much better about literally everything. There's no guilt. There's no shame. There's no foolishness of any sort because of any religion and especially any god. Do you not want this? You're saying to yourself that this human being that belongs to you must be held down by an invisible god? Why would you put yourself through this? A believer cannot possibly imagine the new outlook that is gained when leaving their superstition behind. I understand it's hard, but it's something that you should really look into. And if you need any help or are curious then message me and I'll be very happy to help you; I'm sure Jason would be, too. 



#37 Jason

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:05 PM

In my opinion, when I die I will simply lose consciousness. I will "return," if you will, to the state "I" was in before I was born. This is just my opinion, of course, and science will have a very hard time proving what actually happens.

 

You weren't in any state before you were born (other than the state you were in while in your mother). But before you existed, you didn't exist. And after you die it will be the same. In other words, it won't be like anything.

 

This brings up an interesting philosophical thought, though. I can say: think back to what it was like before you were born. What was that like? And you'll tell me: it wasn't like anything. It all started once I could remember things. Before that happened, it was like nothing. It was like it never happened. It's kind of like falling asleep and not remembering a dream... while you're unconscious, you have no memory of the many hours that just passed and it's as if it happened in an instant.

 

So I can say: well it will be just like that after you die, too. But there's an important difference. No matter how long of a time you're "unconscious" or "don't exist", it will appear as if it went by in an instant provided there's a point in time you become conscious or able to remember things. But what if the period of time in which you can't experience is INFINITE? Any fixed period of time can become an instant, but can infinite time become an instant? This is impossible. It can't happen. We now have a problem.



#38 Hunter

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:17 PM

You weren't in any state before you were born (other than the state you were in while in your mother). But before you existed, you didn't exist. And after you die it will be the same. In other words, it won't be like anything.

 

This brings up an interesting philosophical thought, though. I can say: think back to what it was like before you were born. What was that like? And you'll tell me: it wasn't like anything. It all started once I could remember things. Before that happened, it was like nothing. It was like it never happened. It's kind of like falling asleep and not remembering a dream... while you're unconscious, you have no memory of the many hours that just passed and it's as if it happened in an instant.

 

So I can say: well it will be just like that after you die, too. But there's an important difference. No matter how long of a time you're "unconscious" or "don't exist", it will appear as if it went by in an instant provided there's a point in time you become conscious or able to remember things. But what if the period of time in which you can't experience is INFINITE? Any fixed period of time can become an instant, but can infinite time become an instant? This is impossible. It can't happen. We now have a problem.

 

Interesting points. What you said in your first paragraph is what I meant; I just worded it a bit oddly, I suppose. 

 

When it comes to infinity... I have no idea. Great questions. It's something that can't be answered, of course, until death. 

 

Maybe reincarnation is real. 

 

(I doubt it.)



#39 Jason

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:24 PM

It's hard to not view life without a human-perspective. So even after we think about what it's like to die, it still seems like we're looking at it from a human-perspective, even though we won't be able to experience at all. It seems like something has to fill the void. Maybe nothing has to fill the void, but that is something we aren't capable of imagining.

 

I can't believe in reincarnation because there's no way to connect one life to another in that way. But it is possible that it could be 'like' reincarnation but there aren't actually any connections between the two lives, they're absolutely independent lives.



#40 Hunter

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:18 AM

Yes, exactly. As I said, reincarnation is obviously a little out there (in my mind), but it's interesting to keep all possibilities open. 






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